... the sociologists who carried out the survey, it turned out, that the British...

ДОРОГИЕ УЧАСТНИКИ ФОРУМА!

Я перевела этот текст в Past Simple.
Как вы думаете, нужен ли тут Pres. Perf. Continuous?
В каком бы времени переводили бы вы?
Спасибо,
с нетерпением буду ждать ваших ответов!!!☺

Present perfect continuous?

Vladislav, ну да.
Например, "the results of the public opinion poll have been published..."

Vladislav, а Вы могли бы проверить мой перевод?
Если не сложно)

Просто пока мне сложновато даются переводы с русского на англ. язык вот таких текстов - со сложноподчиненными предложениями и оборотами.
Я в них, бывает, путаюсь)

Ну, это же не present perfect continuous! ) Это present perfect passive.

поэтому я так вопросительно воскликнул.)

Я так понял, вы хотите переиначить следующим образом:

In the UK, the results of the public opinion poll HAVE BEEN published, which HAS showed how the British spenD their leisure time. The results of this survey HAVE BECOME a peculiar kind of a "model"/"ectype" of the british way of life for the last 12 months, since last Аugust. To the surprise of...

да?

Vladislav, мда.
Наверно, в мыслях я уже праздную НГ😉.
Конечно, я имела в виду pres. perfect и его пассивный залог)

Да, вот именно так, как Вы написали!
Мне такой вариант гораздо больше нравится.👍
Спасибо!

Открываем дискуссию на тему PRESENT PERFECT vs SIMPLE PAST in contemporary English.

Vladislav,
ну, разве что на этот перевод кто-то случайно наткнется)
К сожалению, тут нельзя сделать так, чтобы все участники автоматически(!) видели комменты к переводам.😯

А по сути...
Вопрос о переводе - какое лучше время использовать - возник потому, что я, когда читаю или смотрю что-то на английском,
замечаю,
что иногда native speakers... как бы это сказать☺... не так трепетно относятся к грам. правилам, как учащиеся)))
Причем тенденция - к упрощению.
Достаточно часто я встречаю ситуации, когда там, где по всем правилам положено употребить одно время, native speaker (неожиданно!) употребляет другое - более простое.

Конечно, не доверять nativ'ам у меня нет никаких оснований!!!😀
Они говорят живым языком
(без малоупотребимых оборотов, нагромождений и архаизмов, то есть... проще, что ли)

И вот этот живой, разговорный язык, мне и хотелось бы "ухватить".☺

Давайте на примерах и разберем. Приведите их.

Ну вот смотрите☺...
Сложно изложить сразу ВСЕ случаи, (тем более в формате форума) -
я попробую обобщить.
Вот 2 самых распостраненных (по моему наблюдению) "съезда" времен.

1 - Past. Cont. --->Past. Simple
Говоря о прошлом, native speaker может запросто сказать:
I talked with him from 10 till 12.
То есть запросто заменить длительное прошедшее простым прошлым, хотя "from...till" - типичный случай употребления Past. Cont.
Да, можно сказать что это просто перечисление фактов прошлого,
но ведь "from...till" - существует для того, чтоб показывать д-л-и-т-е-л-ь-н-о-с-т-ь☺...
Как я понимаю, в таком случае - Past. Simple, но если среди них есть длит. действия - то это Past. Cont., а иначе зачем эти формы: from...till, for, и пр.?
Да и по правлам так.
Но native speakers часто все излагают в Past. Simple.
Почему?...

А еще Past Perf. Cont. ---> Past. Cont.,
т.е. более сложное длительное "едет" в более простое длительное.
Не очень часто, но встречаю)

2. - Pres. Perf. ---> Past Simple
Даже когда речь не каком-то там прошлом, не имеющем отношения к настоящему - тут ясно, почему Past Simple,
а о только что завершенном действии, тоже часто встречаю Past Simple.
Но ведь должен быть Pres. Perfect!

Вот читаю статью. О прыжках с парашютом. В ней парень рассказывает, как долго говился прыгнуть (в Past Simple говорит, но допустим).
"...И вот наконец я решился и прыгнул!"
Все бы ничего, но интервью у него берут после приземления, и своей последней фразой он демонстрирует результат... в Past Simple!😮
(Искала сейчас этот материал, не могу пока найти, т.к. просто случайно попался на глаза - запомнила только эту "фишку" с временам - но такое встречаю часто).
То есть опять, все повествование идет в Past Simple.
Почему?...

Давайте прежде всего окунемся в разговорное разнообразие русского языка на примерах использования совершенного и несовершенного вида. Вот пример:
Я поем, потом помогу = Я буду кушать, а потом буду помогать
Я рисовал, потом убирался. = Я порисовал, потом убрался.
Я буду заниматься = я позанимаюсь

Часто использование совершенного либо несовершенного видов русского глагола ничем нельзя объяснить, кроме как нашим настроем, отношением, расстановкой акцентов; то есть Я ПОЕМ – я просто констатирую будущий факт принятия пищи, Я БУДУ КУШАТЬ – опять же речь о том же принятии пищи, но вот акцент несколько иной, указывающий на некоторую длительность происходящего. От чего это зависит в живой русской речи? Да не от чего! Захотел – сказал Я ПОЕМ, захотел – Я БУДУ КУШАТЬ. Мой язык – я в нем как рыба в воде – что хочу, то и делаю, как хочу, так и говорю!

Те же тенденции можно наблюдать в любом языке мира, в тех грамматических конструкциях, которые более или менее логически «синонимичны»: I just did it = I have just done it. I was working from 7 to 9 = I worked from 7 to 9.

Такие тенденции четко прослеживаются в американском английском:
Утрируя, расскажу историю про них, которую прямо на ходу и выдумываю.
- Джеймс, где ты был? – James, where have you been?
- Зачем ты спрашиваешь в перфекте, если можно в пасте? = Why not WHERE WERE YOU? Ведь и без этого ясно, что ты спрашиваешь о моем последнем отсутствии, а не о каком-то другом в каком-то прошлом?
- Ну, хорошо, Джеймс, where WERE you?
- Well done, и не усложняй, дружище!

Тенденции по строгому несоблюдению использования PRESENT PERFECT начинают постепенно перетекать и в британский английский, тем не менее все же британцы четко понимают, что WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN (SO FAR NOW)? – ЭТО К ВОПРОСУ О ТВОЕМ ПОСЛЕДНЕМ К НАСТОЯЩЕМУ МОМЕНТУ ОТСУТСТВИИ, а WHERE WERE YOU (THEN)? - это о твоем отсутствии когда-либо в любом не касающемся настоящего момента прошлом.

Другой пример:
I (just) did it = I have (just) done it.

Если британцу сказать I DID IT, то у него могут возникнуть ассоциации с прошлым, что, якобы, я сделал что-то в прошлом в то время (когда, допустим, я был на той конференции). У американца тоже может возникнуть такое понимание, но и в то же самое время он может подумать, что что-то выполненно к настоящему моменту времени, имея некоторую результативность (типа: я сделал, на!)
Если же британцу сказать I HAVE DONE IT – то он четко себе нарисует картину того, что что-то произошло к настоящему моменту, имея результат, вне зависимости от того, когда именно это что-то произощло.

Интересно, что старорусский язык тоже имел перфектацию, которая деградировала и вымерла, оставив за собой свои следы: Я БЫЛО СКАЗАЛ = I HAD SAID. Или русское прошедшее время с суффиксом Л/А/О/И (СДЕЛАЛ/А/О/И) –это бывшее перфектное причастие древнерусскго языка.
Прагматизм американцев подталкивает их к неиспользованию перфекта во всех ситуациях с случаях когда по ситуационному контексту ясно, что имеется в виду соврешенность или несовершенность чего-либо к настоящему моменту.

Другой пример:

I worked from 8 to 9 vs I was working from 8 to 9.
I worked = констатация факта выполнения работы/ I was working = та же констатация + акцент на длительности происходящего (что возможно в этот самый момент что-то другое произошло):

Надеюсь, чем-то да помог.

Если конечно вы и без меня это понимали)

Я подбросил ссылку Ули на фейсбуке на эту дискуссию. Надеюсь, он нам поможет.

Vladislav, я не знаю что и сказать -
я даже не ожидала такого подробного ответа).
Спасибо огромное за разъяснения!
👍👍👍👍👍

Насколько я поняла, в Англии (british english) грамматические традиции сохранились лучше).
Я сейчас доучила английский до upper-intermediate и, начав читать статьи и смотреть видео, стала просто обалдевалать)) от того, как говорят носители языка.
Ну это же, думаю, "неправильно"! Ну тут же, согласно грам. правилам, надо совсем другое время! Разве можно так сказать?☺☺☺...
Я, конечно же, не в носителях языка стала сомневаться, а в себе).
Потому отдельное спасибо за то, что объяснили мне ситуацию.☺

Да, было бы здорово, если бы Uly подключился - наверняка он много интересного мог бы по этому поводу сказать).
Просто ского Новый Год,
и возможно, он занят.☺

Вообще, жаль, что формат ресурса не предполагает подобного рода дискуссий - сколько бы полезного можно было бы узнать и рассказать!

Hello Ruby and Vladislav! I would translate this as follows: "The results of a public opinion poll conducted in the UK have been published, which show how Brits spend their leisure time." If you have any concrete questions, please ask me in English, since I had a hard time following your Russian discussion :)

Ruby, it'd a very great idea if you translate those parts of our discussion that are in Russian into English so that our dear friend Uly could catch up with our ideas and thoughts. Of course, if you have any free time in the busiest moments of the New Year's Evе)

Vlad,
you're absolutely right - it's a very great aaand... cunning idea, you know!😜
I wrote you that translation of the texts like this (especially from Russian to English) is a little bit difficult for me at the moment).
But ok, I accept this "challenge".☺
I'll try asking my questions in English.
Of course, BEFORE the New Year).

Glad I've been of help.

Vladislav, I'm just kidding)
I'm thankful to you for helping and for "making me") write English.
It's a good impetus to speak fluently, really! :-)
Thank you!

So, I'll be brief,
'cos the New Year is coming)!

Uly, Vladislav and Everyone),
first of all, I'd like to wish you a Happy New Year! :-)

On the topic of our conversation.
Uly, I'd like to ask you (as a native speaker) about one peculiarity which I've noticed about using tenses by native speakers.
May be, I'm mistaken, but...
I've been reading articles in English & I've seen videos in English since I learned it, and I'm a little bit flabbergasted by this feature:
apparently, native speakers don't use tenses fully according to the grammar rules.
I kind of think there is a tendency to simplify the rules and to use "Past Simple" instead of "Past Continious" and "Present Perfect" - of course, not always, but pretty often.

What do you think of?
If I'm right then...

What does it depend on?
Of course, it may depend on the context, it's clear)
But could it depend on the accent(!) which a person would like to do?
--- Let's have a look at the Vladislav's example and his explanation:
"I worked from 8 to 9 -vs- I was working from 8 to 9"
If a person wants to highlight the fact (just the fact) then - Pres. Simple:
I worked from 8 to 9
If a person wants to show the fact and to emphasize the duration of the action then - Pres. Continuous:
I was working from 8 to 9

Also
Where have you been? -vs- Where were you?
I (just) did it -vs- I have (just) done it
Can I use Pres. Simple instead of Pres. Perfect if an event is connected with the present or an action is just finished for simplifying, for making my speech more conversational and informal?

In other words, can "a user of English") choose what time to use depending on his mood and for simplifying his speech, not strictly following grammar rules?

P.S.
I'm really sorry for so long post), especially before the New Year,
but I'm really passionate about foreign languages in general and English language in particular.
I'd like to know English at a high level and "to sound natural",
that's why I'm really interested in its subtleties)

Thanks in advance! :-)

lingvolive.com/ru-ru/community/posts/705979

Thank you,
Vladislav)

Hi Ruby and Vladislav! First off, I wish you both every happiness, much prosperity and the health to enjoy it all.

On the past progressive, there are two things to bear in mind: (1) When we use it with a specific time reference, e.g. "Yesterday evening I was reading the newspaper." -or- "This morning at 8 I was walking my dog." it's because someone specifically wants to know WHAT WE WERE DOING at that SPECIFIC POINT IN TIME. So if someone asks you: "What did you do last night?" because they want to know how you spent your evening, you can't answer "I was reading the newspaper." You can only answer with the progressive if they ask you "WHAT WERE YOU DOING last night" because they need to know exactly what you were doing for some reason, e.g. a police investigation, a jealous husband, a nosy friend, etc. I believe in Russian, you can use the imperfective and tell someone "Вчера вечером я читал газету и Руби смотрела телевизор." Not so in English! And this is why...

(2) The progressive is also, and more commonly, used when you want to describe an activity you were involved with WHEN SOMETHING ELSE HAPPENED. For example, "I was walking down the street and I ran into my ex-girlfriend after five years." Going back the above example, if you say "I was reading the newspaper last night" the listener will take this as the backdrop for something else that happened and wait for you to continue the story: "Yeah... you were reading the newspaper and what happened???" That is because...

(3) When we reflect on an action in the past as a whole, for example at the dinner table telling our family about our day, we use the simple past to show that we view these as individual events: Wife: "How was your day?" Husband: "Ok, I guess. I had a breakfast meeting with a client, I attended a memorial service for Harry Stone, then I ran a mile on my lunch break."

So to answer your question, you would say "I was working from 8-9" if someone (a detective, your boss, your wife...) asked you specifically "What were you doing between 8 and 9?" Otherwise, if the question is "How long did you work today" you could answer "I worked from 8 to 9" as a completed action in the past.

Also, we ask "Where have you been" when we refer to the time between when we last saw someone and then saw them again, either because (1) it's been a long time and your happy to see them (in this case, "where've you been!" is almost like a greeting); or (2) you had to wait for them and grew impatient or angry (I've been waiting in front of this theater for two hours - where have you been?!); or (3) you're are curious about all the different places someone has visited so far in a new city, on a vacation ,etc. (A: My wife and I have been touring Russian for the past month. B: Oh yeah? Where all have you been?)

Having said all that, if a person wants to emphasize and specify what they were doing at a certain time, even without being asked, in order to justify their whereabouts or defend their absence, etc. they can use the past progressive: Wife: "There you are! You're late to your own son's birthday party!" Husband: "I was driving around looking for a store that was open so I could buy him these balloons!" Here the husband uses the progressive to justify being late by emphasizing WHAT HE WAS DOING the whole time he was gone.

Finally, the choice of tense isn't a caprice on the speakers part. As in Russian, the English tenses are an organized and exacting system and their use is determined by situations, regardless of one's accent or dialect. For example, in the last example, the husband would never say "I drove around looking..." because that wouldn't effectively explain why he's late. Only the past progressive can do that in this situation. However, there is one exception...

In American English, the present perfect is not used if you specify a point in the past. For instance, you can't say "This morning I have read the newspaper" or "I've seen him yesterday." That is because the present perfect is in fact a PRESENT tense. So if you refer to the past, it has to be a point in time the leads to the PRESENT: Since yesterday, I've watched 25 episodes of Breaking Bad." or "As of this morning, I've gotten 100 Happy Birthdays on Facebook." or "He's been going to Russia every year for the past 10 years." In fact, we don't even use the perfect with JUST (только что) because we consider it too "past" - even if it refers to just a second ago. However, the British have no problem saying things like "I've just seen him" (AmE: "I just saw him.") or "We've just now sent you an email."

I hope all this helps. Let me know if you have any further questions on this topic. I'm always happy to help.

OMG, Uly!
You've just written a little grammar book! (or AmE: You just wrote a little grammar book!)👍
Many thanks for your time and detailed explanation.
I REALLY APPRECIATE IT!

About further questions...
I need some time to think out the difference between the tenses you wrote. For conscious awareness).

Btw, it's a pity that there is no a special section where users could ask & answer to some grammar questions and discuss english (not only english, of course) tips&tricks.☺

Hahaha, I've just written a little grammar! Yes, it's awful that there's no special section, however there's VK and I actually have lots of Russian friends that ask me questions about English there all the time. You're welcome to look me up if you like, under Uly Marrero. Your English is amazing, by the way.

Here's an interesting use of the past progressive I remembered this morning. We use it with verbs like HOPE, THINK, WONDER as a very subtle way of proposing something and at the same time asking the listener what they think of the idea. For example, your husband asks you if you've chosen a color to paint the kitchen. You want to say (1) No, not yet; and (2) I want you to help me choose it; so you say: "I was hoping we could choose one together." To him, this will sounds like "Do you want to help me choose one? What do you think?" Similarly, you have a hard time understanding a concept in English class. When class is over, you tell your professor about your difficulty and he says "Do you want me to recommend some online resources for you to look at? and you want to say: (1) That's a good idea, but no. (2) I prefer to have you explain it yourself; so you say "I was wondering if we could meet after school and go over it together." To him, this will sound like "What do you say we meet...?

Finally, you're at the breakfast table with your parents the day after your graduation. They ask you what colleges you're interested in, assuming you're going straight to college. You want to say (1) I'm not keen on going back to school immediately; and (2) I have another idea - what do you think?... so you say: "Actually, I was thinking I might take a year off and travel a bit." To them, this will sound like "What would you think about me traveling...? In other words, this type of statement is more of a proposal, prompting the listener to give their opinion.

Hello, Uly!
Thank you for your compliment on my English - it's very gratifying to hear it,
but I think I still have a lot to learn, really. :-)
You're right - I've many questions about English and its features,
so thank you so much for you proposal concerning VK.
It's so great!!!
But... Is FB comfortable/convenient for you?
Could I contact you via FB?

About, "HOPE, THINK, WONDER + past progressive".
Hmmm, that's pretty interesting.
Shame on me, but honesty, I've never heard before about this rule.
So, thank you again. :-)

FB is fine too :)

Ruby, HOPE THINK WONDER isn't a rule - it's a usage. I think when people study languages and limit themselves to rules, they put themselves at a disadvantage. Language is a very free-spirited thing that can't be completely confined to grammatical rules - it takes on a life of its own on the lips of its native speakers. For instance, a few people told me on here that "as a rule" the verb WANT is never used in the progressive (wanting). However, English speakers do it all the time. This usage of HOPING THINKING WONDERING expresses an emotional, personal nuance, and grammar rules are usually clinical and impersonal. I look forward to hearing from you on FB and please feel free to ask about anything : )

https://www.lingvolive.com/ru-ru/community/posts/371288

Uly,
THANK YOU!

Uly, interestingly to mention how our colleagues dare say at first that you are wrong in usage of want as a progreessive. :) Trying to correct a native speaker. But I do understand both them and you at the same time. Them - because they 've been taught this way by their multiple books, you - because I have myself dug deeper enought into how big the difference between what we are taught and what really is is. And that technically the Egnlish Language does seem easier than, say, Russian, but I want to mention it, only technically! And it is a really difficult versatile, I'd even say the richest language these days.